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CHINESE TRAVELERS and CENTRAL ASIA in THEIR BOOKS of TRAVELS 1

turkish

Presented by Assoc. Prof. Dr. Serpil Bagci
Guests:  Prof. Dr. İsenbike Togan and Ozkan Izgi.

Bagci: Hello, today we will discuss both books of travels, history and geography of Chinese and our information about Central Asia that we have learnt from Chinese books of travels and resources, in our program “Turkiye’den”. Today’s guests are Prof. Dr. Ozkan Izgi, a faculty member of History Department of Hacettepe University and İsenbike Togan from History Department of METU.  Mr. Izgi is a scientist who conducted many researches about history and geography of China and he was also my instructor. Today our discussion with Mr. Izgi will base on one Chinese book of travel that was both edited and translated into Turkish by him. Before that, we are going to make introduction about Chinese history and geography writings and also resources. Ms. Togan is also scientist who studies on Chinese texts. Mr. Ozkan, let’s start with you? When was Chinese resources started to had been written? How long did we know Chinese resources? Do you give us general information about these issues?

Izgi: We should evaluate these issues starting from why Chinese resources are important for Turkish history of Central Asia, because of that historians should understand the value of Chinese resources. Approximately BC 3000-5000, we met with trace of Turkish history. We also met with the Chinese resources in our resources. I am referring to archaeological findings to evaluate as a cultural heritage by saying our resources. Turks had also oral tradition that is called as a sagu or sav. That includes the epics of heroes. Then we saw legends. The creation of legend was also related to the acts of heroes in wars. The best example of that is the legend of Oguz Khan. Although it was written during Islamic period, it narrated the events happened before that period. Uighurs have Tureyis (appearing) legend. After these our resources emerged in eighth century. What are these resources? These are epitaphs of Tonyukuk that are also our first written resources in Turkish history on stone in 131 that might be period of Bilge Khan. These resources showed the formation of social state. They said that we should wear naked ones and make poor people rich. They narrated both some wars inside the country and relation with Chinese and how khan at the top protects his people. We see the first trace of social state. At that time, we need Chinese resources to learn Turkish history from eight century. When we examine Chinese records that are like neither the history record in West nor our records in Turkish history. Chinese had twenty-four dynasties and there was an official history for each dynasty. According to such an understanding of history in China, every dynasty wrote the history of previous dynasty.

Bagci: Did they write the history of previous one instead of writing their own history?

Izgi: But, there were also daily notes. There could be books of travels or ambassadors or traders. There were texts written by them, then these were delivered to palace. In addition to diaries, there was national history committee. This committee collected whole texts written in the period of previous dynasty. They wrote the history of previous dynasty. Ms. Togan had studies about this issue.

Togan: It was somewhat like our attempt to write Ottoman history:

Izgi: When we look into history of Chinese dynasty, we see firstly how many emperors were from this dynasty. Against whom did this emperor struggle and to whom did he send ambassadors? Later then, the part of geography came. In addition to these, there is also part called as a “ wai-kuo” in that the outsiders of country were talked. We found information related Turks in that part or we can find in part that written for emperor of the dynasty, if ambassador was sent to Turkish region in his time. The Chinese history is really important, because we don’t have other resources. These Chinese resources were firstly introduced Westerners. French men firstly translated the book of travel of Wan Yen-te that we will discuss later on in 1677. Then Europe wakens up. Corresponds about books of travels among scientists started. If we came back to Chinese history, what did they do for us? They had the settlement policy in wars that were done. For example we have found that in Huns and Gokturks. We saw the policy of settlement of Turks into border regions of them in Chinese resources. Why did they apply such a policy? Because either Hun or Gokturks attacked especially Ordos region of Yellow River that was the main region China from above. They took goods and smuggled constantly. To prevent this, they settled Turks into certain region when Turks were impotent. One Gokturk resource defined the attitude of Chinese towards Turks in that way: We didn’t assimilate Turks in our society, because these nomadic people didn’t get use to live in that way. We settled them into border region, they continued to their nomadic life without attack to us.

Bagcı: So, the Great Wall of China was not built against them.

Izgi: The Great Wall of China is represented as that it was done against Turks in both our writings and Turkish History.  Yet it was built against tribes of North.

Bagcı: Can we make a comparison between the tribes of North and “ Yecuc Mecuc” that took palce in Islamic legend? Can we find similarities between construction of Great Wall by Chinese against tribes of North and construction of wall by Alexandria the great or Zulkarney against Yecuc Mecuc?

Izgi: As far as I have known, Yecuc Mecuc was narrated in Bible in addition to Islamic legends. Whole tribes from northern part of China including Mongols and Turks, before foundation of Hun state. We called Hun as a first state founded by Turks. That has been much discussed in West whether Hun was a Turkish state or not. They talked about twenty-four tribes. These included Mongols, Turks and Kitan tribes. For me, Huns were Turks. Because when we examine Gokturks that was formed after Huns, we also see many tribes existed in Huns in Gokturks. We never suspect from the Turkish character of Gokturks. So it is true to call Hun as a Turkish state, despite of including Mongol lineage. Before formation of state, there were Tiele (T’ieh-le) tribe whose history went back up to BC 3000, when we examine its origin. At the same time, there was Mongol tribe (Shih-wei) around Yenisey River. They were next to each other. While our tribe Tielle was patriarchal, the tribe of Shih-wei was matriarchal. Then these tribes of forest moved to south. While moving south, they gained power. On the other hand, Turks gained power and formed their state. Then they were affected the communities that had been settled before. First Chinese dynasty was the Shang lineage in BC 2000. They called their emperor as a son of lake that was Shangdi. Then we faced with “son of lake” in our texts, especially in Gokturks and then in Uighurs, clearly like “ Bilge Kulug Khan” and “Alp Bilge Khan that means who took power as a result of the will of God. Now, we go back in time , Chinese called some tribes of North as a dog tribe but we don’t know exactly for whom they used Turks or Mongols.

Bagcı: If we return again resources, how are these resources protected in papers?

Togan: Resources written on oracle bone in old times were known. It was called as an inscription of oracle bone or faith oracle bone inscription.

Bagcı: Are they used in fortune telling?

Togan: They are put in fire and they were interpreted according to their cracks. For example, whether emperor should go to temple tomorrow or not was asked by priest, then bone was put in fire and priest answered according to its cracks. Inscription quite different from today Chinese was written on this bone. They remained especially from Shang dynasty. We have learned the belief system of those days from them. After the foundation of state in China, belief system had gained the defined philosophical outlook but there was a confused structure in that time. Later there were gratifies and inscriptions on stone and parchment. Printing press was developed in ninth century.

Bagci: When was paper firstly used? Was it before printing press?

Togan: I don’t know the date exactly but it is quite early period.

Bagcı: In my mind, there is a date like fifth century. Are there any painting next to these old inscriptions? Are the inscriptions with paintings on walls focused on certain events and facts or only focused on folk tales and legend?

Togan: I think that there were paintings with texts sometime. For example, there were so many beautiful pictures related to the period of Khan in that the social life was described on stones. These were found in Chia-yu Kuan graveyard that was next to where Turks settled down. They were without texts. Then it was seen picture with poems. There was a formation of strong relationship between paintings and inscription in China.

Bagci: Because Chinese painters are represented as the real painters in the mythology of Near East. Both Chinese decorator and Chinese word had become a model. Whole cultures of Near East argued that real painters emerged among Chinese during Middle Ages.

Togan: There was a painting also in Old Egypt.

Bagci: Yes but when we called decorator, the best and the most beautiful one was Chinese one.

Izgi: As far as I have known, there was no painting in the calendar of Chinese dynasty up to 14th century or I didn’t meet with. Later then that, they placed paintings of plant when they narrated plants. The basic of Sino-Iranice in 14th century was such kind of book. They prepared weightily inscription their books.

Bagci: Mongols or Ilhanlılar in Near East prepared the versions of Camiut Tevarih next to Tebriz during 14th century. They placed the portraits of Chinese emperors in section Chinese history. Researchers think that those were done as an imitation of wooden printing books came from China. As you have said, it happened at the same time beginning of 14th century.

Izgi: I want to say something about Chinese resources. There was one difficulty in Chinese resources. There were no punctuation marks in Chinese in classical period, so you should determine where sentences start and end. In addition to calendar of dynasty history, there were some histories like New Tang History by Hsin Tang Shu added firstly in the period of Tang dynasty. It was also written in palace. There are some differences between these two, sometimes. We can do that now. For example, when we draw two dots above “u”, the meaning of word was changed. While writers wrote by brush, he didn’t use one dot or line. In that way, the meaning of both word and the sentence in that word placed has been changed. The most difficult part of using Chinese resources is to find more clear copy. It happens sometimes but you should have to use other resources that mean you become a dependent to writers of that time.

Togan: When oracle bone inscriptions were written, different inscriptions were written in different regions. The Chinese dynasty (our Chinese name came from that) formed the official state by uniting whole beyliks brought the standards to inscription during BC 220s. They started to write in same way in everywhere. It makes easy to read resources after that period for us. One word from resources of Huns to 1949 was written in same way. I didn’t have to deal with hand inscription related with my research issue because of early usage of printing press. On the other hand, when I dealt with Islam resources, hand inscription is always there, especially absence of punctuation marks creates difficulties and using these marks makes new editions. Not knowing where sentences start and end creates difficulty.

Bagci: Even it was differently written in today’s alphabet.

Togan: What Mr. Izgi said about change in the meaning of word is important but different words with same inscription created difficulties for foreigners to learn some words.

Bagci: What can we say about when we make roughly groups of resources according to their themes, Mr. Izgi?

Izgi:  We don’t know the literacy rate of Chinese society in those days but we know that they don’t understand each other without inscription in some regions of China even today, because of great dialectic differences.

Bağcı: So inscription is shared phenomenon.

Izgi: Of course. What I dealt with are law documents of Uighurs between tenth and fourteenth centuries. They gave an important information for the history of Uighurs. There are some documents written in Uighurs but when you turned their back, there was Chinese version of it. According to one renting document, there was also negotiation. They didn’t agree during this negotiation, so they wrote that. The document written in twelfth century represented the situation of Chinese people. We can say about whom read these documents: Palace was responsible to write the history of previous dynasty.

Bagci: Are these protected in their treasures?

Izgi: In addition to protection in their treasures, Wang Yende who went to Besbalik said that the firmans of Tang dynasty were protected in there in his book of travel. As I have said it is learned how people adopted that from books. In my opinion, these people who were curious about fortune telling did their first fortune on the surface of tortoise, and they could access the books of fortune more easily with printing press.

Bagci: At least it is true for city-dweller and traders, isn’t it?

Togan: Did people read books that we have talked about? It is not so clear but Chu Hsi who was the great philosopher of China wrote some advises to increase production of city for city-dweller and villagers on the walls of houses in twelfth century. I don’t have any idea about whether one philosopher wrote his ideas to increase agricultural production in Ottoman Empire. There were gratifies in China because of existence of littered people. There are also wall newspapers even today in China. We know the existence of such wall newspaper in twelfth century.

Bagci: During those ages even before in tenth century, it was recorded that this book was written for some that read in the introduction part of one story book. Probably, that happened in China. Some people wrote for who read. It wasn’t necessarily the history book. Possibly literature books were written.

Izgi: Probably religious books were written. For example, they translated Buddhist’s sutra into Chinese not for palace but for people. Who read these books were mostly people, so we see this example in Uighurs. In the period of Uighurs, Buddhism and Manihaism were important. Buddhist’s sutras were also translated in Uighur language. If one text included ten pages, they translated it with its explanation into fifteen pages. They did that for people. Probably, they used Chinese to spread religion. They also made translation for people. As I have said before, they talked about geography, journeys and the life of emperor in the political history book. It might be said that official history remained its boundaries in them like our.

Bagci: I want to repeat my previous question. What can we say about when we
make roughly groups of resources according to their themes, Mr. Izgi?

Izgi: There are fortune books called as I-ching (Yijing). There are books about plant that was translated by Laufer in great manner. Also, there is geography and trade on Silk Road. It is possible to divide into many sections of Chinese history, it is not the history only describing wars.

Bagci: Ms. Togan, you talked about pictures of grave. You said that there were pictures describing social life. Are there any texts about same issue? For example might there be any record of court in which there was a life of fisherman? Are there any popular parts of records of court in which we can fallow social life?

Togan: Of course. Individually, I didn’t deal with them. We couldn’t complete the examination of what we called as official history sometimes without liking. Because of that, I interpreted first question differ. If you wish, I could answer in that way. Let us talk about the kind of resources of this official history. Before Mr. Izgi talked about that there are histories of twenty-four dynasties. They were organised in BC. Calendars are introduction, then continues first emperor, second emperor and so on… Following part is about calendars, geography and disasters in type of small monographs and booklets. In third part, there is an information about life of viziers, princess and emperor and the story of how they became emperor and important events in their period. Fourth part includes biographies. These biographies include persons from previous dynasty based on advises of previous one including one or two bad persons. Information about us is in the booklet part under the heading of foreign relation. Related to your question, issues related to social life are quite few, but I saw some information about social life in the part of booklet. When they talked about one person in that part, they said that this man had a friend like that. These were suitably written biography of person who was seen as a suitable to official history.

Bagci: Are these only biographies of members of monarch family?

Togan: About the famous persons who lived in that era. Yet if this person did wrong thing or monarch family didn’t like what this person did, this person lose the chance to enter history. These resources include person who gained to enter, but there is great literature of China, except this official history. There is information about Chinese social structure in this great literature. Yet this information can’t be helpful to explain the history of Central Asia every time. This twenty-four history is newly translated into Turkish. This whole history isn’t translated completely into Western languages as well. Because of that, people studied on them but one literature work or book of travels can give us more colourful pictures.

Bagci: I am planning to ask exactly that point to you. The whole studies on the translation of Chinese resources were started in this century, weren’t they? When did West start to know Chinese resources?

Izgi: It was researched in seventeenth century, some resources of China were firstly recognised in 1677.

Bagci: It is also the start of Journey of Cizvits. I have read the novel of priest named Hu. It is about 1720. Are these resources examined and published in modern scientific ways? As Ms. Togan said, they were not enough translations.

Izgi: According to Turkish history?

Bagci: I don’t limit by saying Turkish history, generally about resources.

Izgi: Chinese are making profitable their own resources. Japanese are also examining Chinese resources, even they captured whole details. Japanese has twenty-four volumes dictionary of Moraharsi. We couldn’t do such a dictionary for our language. This dictionary explains the meaning of one term or institution with reference to its date and in which resources you can find them. We are too poor in that point. We even don’t define where the information about Turks took place in these twenty-four dynasty Chinese calendars. Everybody including myself did something about the part of Central Asia. Ms. Togan studied on later period. But nobody did studied on Turks in twenty-four histories. Turkish History Institution started to do something like that.

Togan: We are continuing to study.

Izgi: I hope that it will reach a conclusion. Bahattin Ongel from our instructors translated some works from Chinese by his own. If the great historian Togan who I knew personally would know Chinese, what would happen to Turkish history. Everybody from our generation did small contribution, because there are so many subjects to study on. It is necessary to be a master of classical Chinese. It is so meaningless to make its translation without reference to other resources from same period. I want to add something to your previous question. It was said whether there is information about social life in Chinese resources. I am not quite sure but I want to develop my ideas from that clue. The region of Rao-ch’ang where Uighurs setttled down was old military zone of China before that. When Uighurs started to write law document in tenth century, they took Chinese one as an example. When we look into these documents that include either relation between state and person or person and person. So we see social aspect of China from usage of this language by person in the outside of official history. I don’t know which resources we can find them. There should be such kind of documents in Tufan region during sixth and seventh centuries because of that Uighurs took that. I don’t know whether these are also included in official history but we don’t know or whether these are included books written by person from outside of official history.

Bagci: It is understood that we can’t discuss your Chinese ambassador’s book of travels about Uighurs Mr. Izgi. We will discuss it on our next program. When we finish our program, I want to ask difficulties of translation of parts related Turks to whom translated them, Ms. Togan. Which difficulties have you meet in the period of translation?

Togan: One of the difficulties is the difficulty of define the exact place of geographical name. Now we have good maps on Internet. In addition to that, Chinese did history atlas, I don’t know how many volumes.

Bagci: Are they old?

Togan: It could be new. I remembered someone’s conference in US in 1985. They might be published in 1990s. It is great detailed atlas and one for each dynasty. When I was preparing my doctoral thesis, it was too difficult to find such things. I studied on texts without punctuation marks completely. Now texts with punctuation marks were published in both Beijing and Taiwan. So I didn’t have to find these marks by myself. On the other hand, the Academia Sinica from Taiwan put these twenty-four histories to the Internet. It was sold in thirty thousand dollar. Now it is free. For example you asked how many Serpil Bagci was used, computer can give answer to you. Despite of these facilities, it is difficult to understand texts without understanding both its discourse and problems of that era, as Mr. Izgi said before. This difficulty continues. In addition to that, it is necessary to know some expressions that are not related with Turks. Because Chinese wrote these texts, it is necessary to know what Chinese thought. As Mr. Izgi said, the translation by its own is not sufficient. It is not easy to translate to make speak them in certain conditions. Although you examine it several times there is always something remain outside.

Izgi: It is necessary both to know Chinese very well and to be a good historian. For example, you can know English very well but you can’t translate the history book very well.

Bagci: Some questions emerged when we make translation or read some texts. Dear spectators we will continue to same subject with same guests in our next program. Thanks you for participation. Have good days!

pc12.soc.metu.edu.tr    (26 November 2000, Ankara)